Marijuana anonymous and the 12 step program

[Cannabis Rehab Admin]

Although I think the 12 step program is great for anybody who finds it works for them and if you do find yourself compatible with its teachings I would always recommend it, personally I find it far too focused on religion, I must admit I have held my tongue a little bit and tried to focus on its benefits whenever discussing it on this place because it does help an awful lot of people, but there’s elements of it I find a bit bizarre and I say this as a person of faith, here are the twelve steps for anybody who is unaware of them.

Twelve Steps
1. We admitted we were powerless over (whatever the addiction is)—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I do not think we are powerless over our addictions, if we are I think we are really screwed, I think this is the exact opposite to the attitude we should be taking, it’s not God’s responsibility to keep yourself clean it’s yours, you can’t just offload the responsibility onto God, it’s up to you to remove your short comings not God and please excuse me for one moment if you are a none believer, but we are not drones that it’s up to God to control and manage properly, that’s the whole idea of free will and been “tested”, it’s up to us to do the right thing not God to do it for us.

Don’t get me wrong I think it includes some very good stuff but I think it is far too focussed on having to have certain types of religious beliefs, sure your religion/spirituality can be part of you getting clean, a very important part for some, if your religious beliefs form part of your strategy for overcoming your addiction then great, but first and foremost it’s about personal responsibility and if you can’t get to grips with that then I really do not fancy your chances, you have got to do it for yourself God cannot do it for you.

The other thing is with this main focus been on religion is that it’s terribly un-inclusive to those who are secular or don’t share the same type of religious beliefs. What are these people supposed to do who are desperate for support? It seriously concerns me that these people are not been catered for.

The main reason I think alcoholics/narcotics/gamblers/marijuana/whatever anonymous is so successful is because of its support group type nature, not because God is doing the work for you, it’s you who is going to have to do the work, it’s not God’s responsibility and nor should it be.

Don’t get me wrong I am not saying that for people of faith their religion should not be part of their recovery, religion/spirituality really helped me, I am just saying it’s not going to be for everybody and therefore don’t think that it should be the main focus or requirement of been part of a support group. There are so many places where AA, NA, MA, ect, are the only support groups available, if there was always a non religious alternative available then that would be fine, but in many places there is not and even if you are a person of faith you may still find the placing of all the responsibility onto God not in line with your beliefs.

Like I say I don’t want to knock it too much as I know it works for and helps many people and if it works for you then that’s great I would advise you to keep doing it, but my concern is that it may not be inclusive to all that’s all.

For the record all who want to detox are welcome here, you don’t have to conform to any particular religious philosophy or beliefs, if your faith is a big part of your rehabilitation that’s great feel free to talk about it, if it’s not then that’s fine too you will be just as welcome either way, whatever works for you.

Anyway that’s my take on the whole 12 step approach type thing. What say you?

[cbc990]

12 steps work for some people. AA admits that 95% of people quit the program in the first year, and 40% never return to a second meeting. That gives you an idea of their success rate. I went in an online Marijuana Anonymous meeting once, and it made me want to smoke more than anything.

My fiance has an degree in Addictions Counselling, and he says that the people for whom 12 steps programs are the people for whom "1 drink is too many and 1,000,000 are not not enough"

My mom successfully quit drinking by joining AA. My best friend went to one meeting, and hearing everyone talk about booze for 2 hours drove her straight to the bar right after the meeting.

I agree 1,000% about that "powerless" phony-baloney. It seems like a cop-out. You go 30 days without smoking/drinking and you give the credit to someone else. You slip once, and you blame someone else. What role does the addict have in all of that? It sounds like they're just passively sitting around watching what happens to their life. People who blame all their problems on others tend to stay in their problems. People who take ownership for their decisions are empowered to change them.

[Cannabis Rehab Guest]

5% Fallacy - it's really 26%

AA never said 5% remain after a year. AA in fact said it's 26%. The 5% is a slice of a simple frequency distribution. In simpler terms: 5% of those new to AA were in their 12th month.

[TheDude]

While I have not exclusively used the 12 steps, I have used a balanced approach and pull from wisdom found in a lot of places. There are some serious misconceptions about 12 step programs, a huge one being about "religion", but I'll get to that part further in.

I do not think we are powerless over our addictions, if we are I think we are really screwed, I think this is the exact opposite to the attitude we should be taking, it’s not God’s responsibility to keep yourself clean it’s yours, you can’t just offload the responsibility onto God, it’s up to you to remove your short comings not God and please excuse me for one moment if you are a none believer, but we are not drones that it’s up to God to control and manage properly, that’s the whole idea of free will and been “tested”, it’s up to us to do the right thing not God to do it for us.

First off, generally everyone who walks into a 12 step meeting has tried various things to detox using, including "thinking" their way out of an addiction. 12 step groups do not see clean people as "non-addicts". It sees them as "recovering addicts", so in other words, stopping active using does not stop a person from being an addict.

I think this is largely true, considering that many people have struggles long after their last use. Why? They're addicts.

This brings up the "powerlessness" issue. "Powerless over our addiction". That doesn't mean we are powerless over using, it means exactly as it says: addiction. I also agree with this 12 step concept. Battling addiction does not necessarily mean battling using. We don't control the obsession and compulsion, we rather look to other things larger than our own problems to escape them.

Don’t get me wrong I think it includes some very good stuff but I think it is far too focussed on having to have certain types of religious beliefs, sure your religion/spirituality can be part of you getting clean, a very important part for some, if your religious beliefs form part of your strategy for overcoming your addiction then great, but first and foremost it’s about personal responsibility and if you can’t get to grips with that then I really do not fancy your chances, you have got to do it for yourself God cannot do it for you.

It is a spiritual program, not a religious one. Religion and spirituality are not the same thing. There are even spiritual Atheists.

The other thing is with this main focus been on religion is that it’s terribly un-inclusive to those who are secular or don’t share the same type of religious beliefs. What are these people supposed to do who are desperate for support? It seriously concerns me that these people are not been catered for.

Again, it's not about religion. There are particular meetings that include large religious followings, based purely on the religious peoples that go to those meetings, not the 12 step program.

The word "God" used represents a higher power than yourself. And it is fact that we alone are not the highest power in our lives. If one thing doesn't go the way we want, we alone are not the highest power. If we cannot do everything we want to do, we alone are not the highest power. If we are thinking about using, and call our support group in the program to stay clean, we alone are not the highest power.

Again, many of us cannot "think" our own way out of using.

The main reason I think alcoholics/narcotics/gamblers/marijuana/whatever anonymous is so successful is because of its support group type nature, not because God is doing the work for you, it’s you who is going to have to do the work, it’s not God’s responsibility and nor should it be.

Don’t get me wrong I am not saying that for people of faith their religion should not be part of their recovery, religion/spirituality really helped me, I am just saying it’s not going to be for everybody and therefore don’t think that it should be the main focus or requirement of been part of a support group. There are so many places where AA, NA, MA, ect, are the only support groups available, if there was always a non religious alternative available then that would be fine, but in many places there is not and even if you are a person of faith you may still find the placing of all the responsibility onto God not in line with your beliefs.

But 12 step programs do not view God as a separate entity. The higher power encompasses everything. "What is".

[Cannabis Rehab Admin]

Hi again the dude.

Yeah some very interesting points, I suppose a lot of it comes down to how you define addiction and how you define spirituality. If your somebody to whom addiction means your use of the drug then I suppose it’s that which you shouldn’t feel powerless over, but maybe like you say they are viewing it from a slightly different perspective. The same with the spirituality thing, it’s a word subject to subjective interpretation and can mean different things to different people. I suppose it’s like Richard Dawkins says it depends what you mean by the word “spirituality” if you mean it in the einsteinal as I think he puts it sense of the words i.e. in awe at the magnificence and wonder of the universe, then yes that can apply to most of us, but if you mean it in the sense of having as he puts it supernatural like religious beliefs i.e. angels/celestial beings, a creative higher power or a karmic like super natural force/energy, or whatever else people define God or a higher power to be as these days, basically stuff that people like Richard Dawkins feel there’s no scientific evidence for, considering those are two very different things, if they don’t just mean it in the einsteinal sense of the word, it kind of leaves out people like our good friend Dickie Dawkins, who don’t believe in whatever it is they mean by their multi faith, encompass almost every single religious belief on the face of the earth term “higher power”, there’s some people who just don’t believe in anything like that, they think life, existence and the universe is exactly as their system of scientific beliefs defines it, nothing more, nothing less and nothing that science doesn’t prove the existence of and no “higher power”, by the way I am not arguing for those set of beliefs, I myself think there is more to existence than what they think, but I am just trying to express the perspective they are coming from. I just fear that talking about turning your will over to a higher power will alienate them and leave them out in the cold, I just worry that being as the whatever the addiction is anonymous groups have the monopoly on the addiction support group franchise, I have never heard of any other major alternatives, I just worry that there are an awful lot of people out there who don’t share those type of beliefs who are not been catered for.

Like I say I feel bad saying anything bad about them at all because I know they do help an awful lot of people and if their system of beliefs is compatible with your system of beliefs then great I wholeheartedly recommend them, I just feel a bit concerned for those who may not be being cater for. Whatever the addiction is anonymous have gone out of their way to be multi faith inter domination and cater for just about every religion under the sun, but I still am not sure they are catering for the people who are just plain atheists and don’t believe in anything like that including a God or the everything that is “higher power”, they think that they are the highest power that's in control of their lives and that it is their and their responsibility alone to fix it and I must admit I do think we have to take full responsibility for our own actions, which is something we can’t really do if we don’t feel that the ultimate control lies with us in the first place. Surely we cannot change what we cannot control.

Anyway a very interest conversation indeed a little bit of science versus theology type philosophy, perhaps with a sprinkling of does free will rely exist and if so to what extent? I dunno perhaps I would be happier if they viewed it as a team effort, maybe we all have to do our bit, us, the higher power and each other, I often feel as if that’s how it is around here we are all taking on the responsibility of helping each other, lol, anyway it’s far too late to be pondering such brain frying questions, whatever you want to believe is cool with me, I just like to see that everybody gets looked after, like Jesus said “”bring me all the children” not just some”, Gordon Brown quoting Jesus Christ, if you like politics like I do it doesn’t get much better than that. Anyway I am signing off, this is way too over stimulating for my brain at this time of night. I hope I have not offended anyone, whatever works for you is cool with me and as Dave Allen used to say “Good night and may your god go with you” or not as the case may be for all you Richard Dawkins type people.

Take care everybody.

[TheDude]

Hi again the dude.

Yeah some very interesting points, I suppose a lot of it comes down to how you define addiction and how you define spirituality. If your somebody to whom addiction means your use of the drug then I suppose it’s that which you shouldn’t feel powerless over, but maybe like you say they are viewing it from a slightly different perspective. The same with the spirituality thing, it’s a word subject to subjective interpretation and can mean different things to different people. I suppose it’s like Richard Dawkins says it depends what you mean by the word “spirituality” if you mean it in the einsteinal as I think he puts it sense of the words i.e. in awe at the magnificence and wonder of the universe, then yes that can apply to most of us, but if you mean it in the sense of having as he puts it supernatural like religious beliefs i.e. angels/celestial beings, a creative higher power or a karmic like super natural force/energy, or whatever else people define God or a higher power to be as these days, basically stuff that people like Richard Dawkins feel there’s no scientific evidence for, considering those are two very different things, if they don’t just mean it in the einsteinal sense of the word, it kind of leaves out people like our good friend Dickie Dawkins, who don’t believe in whatever it is they mean by their multi faith, encompass almost every single religious belief on the face of the earth term “higher power”, there’s some people who just don’t believe in anything like that, they think life, existence and the universe is exactly as their system of scientific beliefs defines it, nothing more, nothing less and nothing that science doesn’t prove the existence of and no “higher power”, by the way I am not arguing for those set of beliefs, I myself think there is more to existence than what they think, but I am just trying to express the perspective they are coming from. I just fear that talking about turning your will over to a higher power will alienate them and leave them out in the cold, I just worry that being as the whatever the addiction is anonymous groups have the monopoly on the addiction support group franchise, I have never heard of any other major alternatives, I just worry that there are an awful lot of people out there who don’t share those type of beliefs who are not been catered for.

Interesting points. Karma can be interpreted as supernatural or merely through evidence. I see Karma work in action and reaction, as if one is unhappy, they will most likely treat others more negatively, then receive more negative in return.

I do agree that 12 steps have a monopoly on support group approaches, although there are others much less widespread. Most treatment facilities mainly use 12 step as well.

The question is: why? Is the 12 step approach pushing out other support groups, or is there just little interest as a whole to creating a larger network of different support groups than 12 step?

AA, NA, SA, OA etc. have no centralized authority that dictates how each meeting operates. So it's hard for me to understand how and why there would be a concerted effort to push out other types of groups. As well, 12 step groups are largely used in cannabis rehab centers. Why aren't these centers choosing more alternatives? Are they biased, or do the others have a higher turnover rate?

Like I say I feel bad saying anything bad about them at all because I know they do help an awful lot of people and if their system of beliefs is compatible with your system of beliefs then great I wholeheartedly recommend them, I just feel a bit concerned for those who may not be being cater for. Whatever the addiction is anonymous have gone out of their way to be multi faith inter domination and cater for just about every religion under the sun, but I still am not sure they are catering for the people who are just plain atheists and don’t believe in anything like that including a God or the everything that is “higher power”, they think that they are the highest power that's in control of their lives and that it is their and their responsibility alone to fix it and I must admit I do think we have to take full responsibility for our own actions, which is something we can’t really do if we don’t feel that the ultimate control lies with us in the first place. Surely we cannot change what we cannot control.

Good questions. I think the word "God" should be eschewed completely from the text, and evolved to only "higher power", which can be defined more widely and does not have an implication. "Higher power" does exist through evidence, imo. We are simply not the highest power in our lives. Everything does not go our way, and we largely cannot control "what is" past what we can control. So the overall conflict becomes what we want vs. what is. I can see that as completely plausible in the context of addiction.

Anyway a very interest conversation indeed a little bit of science versus theology type philosophy, perhaps with a sprinkling of does free will rely exist and if so to what extent? I dunno perhaps I would be happier if they viewed it as a team effort, maybe we all have to do our bit, us, the higher power and each other, I often feel as if that’s how it is around here we are all taking on the responsibility of helping each other, lol, anyway it’s far too late to be pondering such brain frying questions, whatever you want to believe is cool with me, I just like to see that everybody gets looked after, like Jesus said “”bring me all the children” not just some”, Gordon Brown quoting Jesus Christ, if you like politics like I do it doesn’t get much better than that. Anyway I am signing off, this is way too over stimulating for my brain at this time of night. I hope I have not offended anyone, whatever works for you is cool with me and as Dave Allen used to say “Good night and may your god go with you” or not as the case may be for all you Richard Dawkins type people.

Take care everybody.

I would go even further and just create a simpler version of the existing program to cover all compulsive behavior. It would not be specific to drugs, alcohol, sex or anything else. Meeting would be consisted of groups of people that run the gamut in their compulsive behavior. This would greatly be more inclusive, and less comparative. Sure, people would have all kinds of different problems, but the differences would weigh much less into the equation because there would be less pressure of being "different" from everyone else.

Good day

[Cannabis Rehab Admin]

Yeah it’s like you say these are all good questions and anything to do with religion and spirituality is always subject to interpretation which makes it so complicated when they are involved. I totally agree with the karma existing in some shape or form thing, even if it’s only based on how others react to how we behave, I am sure pretty much everybody would agree with that even if they don’t believe in a supernatural like judicial force. I too think there’s more to existence than the Richard Dawkins conventional scientific type view, although the exact nature of how things really are I am not entirely sure, I think every man who has ever lived that claims to know for sure is just speculating, who knows how things really are. What I do like to believe however is that free will does exist at least to some extent, no we are not in total control of absolutely everything that goes on in our lives, I am sure even the biggest believers in free will would accept that even if they don’t believe in a supernatural higher power, but I do like to think that out of any power that exists we have the most control over our free will more than anyone/anything else, I find the idea of thinking that another power has more control over our own free will than us a little bit dangerous, once you get into that ball game people can do things and not be responsible for their own actions, it totally destroys the idea of personal responsibility and in my a opinion represents a really primitive religious mentality where anything good that happens you attribute to God or a good higher power and anything bad that happens you blame on the Devil or whatever. However I do accept that there are situations where because of a mental health problem for example or even an addiction peoples free will is significantly influenced, although I am not sure that it destroys it all together, just like with an addiction if the will is strong enough I would imagine most people can succeed, but maybe it depends on the severity of the situation. Anyway a lot of the problem may be with AA having a different interpretation to some of the words they use to what a lot of other people will have, a bit like the person always been addicted even if they have not used in over 50 years, not everybody would still call that person an addict, they tend to separate been an addict and using when a lot of people don’t and in the way in which they mean it you will always be an addict and will be powerless over that but can still choose not to use, but to a lot of people been an addict means using, so I imagine a fair bit of confusion comes from that alone.

Anyway thanks for your input I really do enjoy these type of discussions, I know a lot of people say don’t talk about religion/spirituality but I think that sometimes causes more problems than it solves.

Take care

[Detox Me]

video link on 12 step program

I read this thread and since I have not tried the program I did not comment.
but then I started listening to podcasts about people stories with adictions and found this video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3208718348326#

On friday I shall celebrate my 5th month off! But I still have been thinking of joining a 12 step group in my locality have not made the decision but I do believe there are some positives.

So to enrich this thread I posted the link. If it does not work try to google it as: Mel Van Dusen presents overcomming marijuana addiction.